Are there enough records to go round?

[Rich Hero]

This has come up on S@~£$&%~t and Deepfunk in the past few days and it got me thinking (like whoa&#33... Who's in charge, you or your records? Do you ever find yourself making decisions because of them (not moving house, getting paranoid when you've missed a weekend's digging...)? I mean, I'd like to believe that there's plenty more records than I could ever need and, even if I didn't buy something for a year, there's plenty more fish, etc. but sometimes I don't behave like that's the case.

"Let's have a heated debate."

[Matt Hero]

Quote[/b] (Rich Hero @ Dec. 23 2003,14:09)]This has come up on S@~£$&%~t and Deepfunk in the past few days and it got me thinking (like whoa&#33... Who's in charge, you or your records? Do you ever find yourself making decisions because of them (not moving house, getting paranoid when you've missed a weekend's digging...)?

I've tried to get a bit of perspective on going out to dig recently.

There was a time where if I missed a weekends boots or for some reason was too busy to get to the charity shops for a few weeks, that I'd get paranoid about what I was missing.

More recently I've been trying to check myself a bit on that, as the number of records coming through the door on an average week was getting so large that I wasn't able to listen let alone store them. Especially as I've got equal amounts of books & Sindy toys coming in via Caz.

Mind you, got to pop to the newsagents in a mo.... is would be *stupid* of me not to do the charity shops at the same time wouldn't it ?

[Rich Hero]

Quote[/b] (Matt Hero @ Dec. 23 2003,14:23)]Mind you, got to pop to the newsagents in a mo.... is would be *stupid* of me not to do the charity shops at the same time wouldn't it ?

If you ask the newsagent if Marlborough won't supply packs of cigarettes in fives, just so you have to go twice as often, I think you may be in trouble...

[LDJB]

I often think that us Vultures pass a lot of records back and forth between ourselves - there have been several occasions where I've got a record via a trade or from ebay and a mailer has been reused and I recognise the previous sender as a fellow vulture!

As for the record digging ruling your life - I'm afraid so - I CANNOT walk past an open charity / junk / 2nd hand record shop without popping in, even if I was in there the day before - well you just never know

[theeman]

some good points. seems that two questions are being asked here:
1. are there enough/any more records out there waiting to be found?
2. do records have a disproportionate emphasis on your behaviour?

1. this seems to be a perennial nerd question, right from back in the day. i wondered if the Shadow/hip-hop-inspired 'crate digging' culture would skew the market for records - while this seems to be true in terms of prices, the vinyl still seems to be out there (just not as often if you're after a 'name' tune that's been sampled). many of the people on this board seem to have had outstanding years for finding rare or interesting new discoveries. certainly for me it's been the best year for booting of the last few years.

couldn't agree more with what LJ said about vinyl cycling. it seems that much of the really collectable stuff goes through the hands of collectors and dealers all the time, with the occasional new copy turning up, being bought by someone who recognises it for what it is, and trades/sells on to members of that community who value it on that basis.

while, due to inevitable vinyl wear, the condition of these records is only going to decrease with time, it seems that roughly the same amount of vinyl is available and only slowly seems to be decreasing in volume (mostly thanks to various postal services by the sound of it&#33 then when a collector carks it or decides to cash in, their records go back into circulation and so the circle begins once more...

music is encoded onto the disc in a spiral too so we could get quite metaphysical about it if we were really bored.

2. yes

[Matt Hero]

Y'see Rich, without your reminder of the fact that there are records, out there right now, mere yards from my house that I can buy... I wouldn't know just what Eartha Kitt's version of 'Hurdy Gurdy Man' sounds like.

[Rich Hero]

Quote[/b] (theeman @ Dec. 23 2003,15:38)]some good points. seems that two questions are being asked here:
1. are there enough/any more records out there waiting to be found?
2. do records have a disproportionate emphasis on your behaviour?

True, there are two points in there - to me they are 2. is dependent on 1., to some extent.

I used to worry that if I didn't bag everything immediately it's price would inevitably inflate and sooner or later it would soar out of reach (and I still pick things up if the price is sensible, then cheaper doubles are a bonus). But, those are the known bits. It's now dawned that new bits will always be unearthed and, with friendly sources (all you good people) there will always be great records at affordable prices, just maybe not the 'trophies'. So even if you don't dig for six months, a year, etc. there will still be plenty to find (although the wants list may need updating  Â). I guess it's good to know that noone can ever know it all (can they?!?).

[Rich Hero]

Quote[/b] (Matt Hero @ Dec. 23 2003,16:10)]Y'see Rich, without your reminder of the fact that there are records, out there right now, mere yards from my house that I can buy... I wouldn't know just what Eartha Kitt's version of 'Hurdy Gurdy Man' sounds like.

Either great or shite I suspect? I somehow don't expect that one to fall on the middle ground...

[Matt Hero]

Quote[/b] (Rich Hero @ Dec. 23 2003,16:14)]

Quote[/b] (Matt Hero @ Dec. 23 2003,16:10)]Y'see Rich, without your reminder of the fact that there are records, out there right now, mere yards from my house that I can buy... I wouldn't know just what Eartha Kitt's version of 'Hurdy Gurdy Man' sounds like.

Either great or shite I suspect? I somehow don't expect that one to fall on the middle ground...

Oh certainly it does, just I'm not sure which it is right now....

[Benicio Del Toffo]

Quote[/b] ]music is encoded onto the disc in a spiral too so we could get quite metaphysical about it if we were really bored.

Oops! Ed's getting a bit 'Uzumaki'!!

They missed an opportunity on the film really, could have had a death-by-vinyl moment, but chose a pissing washing machine instead. Pah.

Anyway, the way to avoid your life being dictated by your records is to sell or give away some of them, just to prove you can do it. If anyone wants to give me any records, that's fine and I'm here to help.

I too feel the paranoia of not going to a boot/fair and wondering what I could possibly have missed out on, but how far do you extrapolate that - do you want to sit having cold sweats because someone may be finding that copy of Moody with your name on it in a charity shop in Barrow-In-Furness, or a minty copy of Hymns A-Swingin' in a coal scuttle in Penzance? Chill out. You'll find what you're meant to find and there are plenty to go round. Even in the 'breaks' genre, folk unearth a bunch of new drum beats every year in what you'd assume was a finite field.

Be careful or it will stop being fun.

Benicio

[sermad]

Ive pretty much given up on the uk. I wont go out of my way hitting 10 charitiees in an area - or try and fit 3 booters in. Basically what I want isnt there and Ive scored more vv gear off you lot then any flamin booter!

Now I save my time researching on the net - investing it into building up my searches for my auction software and so on.

Also I really save my cash for utrecht now - I always walk away with so many good records and every time its always pretty good. Plus its so nice chilling with pokester and frenchies that venture up there. It really is a fun few days.

With all things music it all comes round again - when scat isnt the flavour of the month anymore the prices drop like a stone and I pick up the few pieces I need - same with ost's too. That 250 manu dibango lp will be 75 in a few years and right now the cdr does me just fine.

[Blighty]

Quote[/b] (Matt Hero @ Dec. 23 2003,16:10)]I wouldn't know just what Eartha Kitt's version of 'Hurdy Gurdy Man' sounds like.

Her version of 'Wear Your Love Like Heaven' is a whole lot better.

[left hand corner]

This is an interesting Thread (especially if you're stuck in an empty office like me working on your yearly appraisal).

To answer the original question, I think there are more than enough records to go round. Over the next few years the number of vinyl collectors will remain static or reduce whilst the number of records that will enter the market will increase. With all the new technology available only a dedicated few will continue to collect vinyl. The reason I started collecting was because I didn't have the money to buy new records and spending 25p on a James Brown 7" seemed like a good deal. Why would a 13yr with no money start collecting originals when he could go on the internet and get some of the greatest music ever made for next to nothing?

[theeman]

Quote[/b] (left hand corner @ Dec. 29 2003,12:20)]Why would a 13yr with no money start collecting originals when he could go on the internet and get some of the greatest music ever made for next to nothing?

good point... also many aspiring kiddie DJs seem to be burning CDRs (often of these MP3s) to play out, or using iPods etc, so that's another collector market disappearing...

like Sermad I've given up on charity digging in the South East. waste of time unless you can be there 24/7. the booters, however, still seem to yield amazing stuff and the record shops themselves can't keep up with the million different scenes and all their tiny peaks of supply and demand, so there's always something to be found.

like LBG says, there is ALWAYS quality music being produced somewhere by someone, regardless of when it's released, so when you're all bored of that early 70s sound then there'll be something else to look for. our kids - if they (unwisely) inherit a love of vinyl - will probably all be chasing something we're currently sleeping on, like New York electroclash/nu-metal/ska punk crossover and will think we're a bunch of retards for missing out on it first time around.

oh, and on a festive note, i was nattering to my dad (a jazz nut) over Xmas about Don Rendell and Ian Carr. he was saying how they were regarded as absolutely the best players on the UK jazz scene, and everyone who was seriously into jazz in the 60s really rated them. so i asked if he'd bought any of the albums (pause for effect)...

'think i had them on tape somewhere...'

damn!

[theeman]

Quote[/b] (theeman @ Dec. 29 2003,12:37)]like Sermad I've given up on charity digging in the South East. waste of time unless you can be there 24/7.

it's worth mentioning that the reason there are no decent records in South East charities posts to this board regularly!

[Rich Hero]

Quote[/b] (theeman @ Dec. 29 2003,12:39)]

Quote[/b] (theeman @ Dec. 29 2003,12:37)]like Sermad I've given up on charity digging in the South East. waste of time unless you can be there 24/7.

it's worth mentioning that the reason there are no decent records in South East charities posts to this board regularly!

Yep. I'm thinking of changing my onscreen name to something beginning with L. And then moving somewhere between London and Edinburgh.



I'd like to believe the downloading idea but I'm not sure... We're all in this because we love music but also because we're obsessive compulsive collectors, and the notion of 'collecting' mp3s doesn't ring true to me. To some degree, original presses, etc. are important to us - where does that fit in with technodigging? I'm hoping my luddite handle on reality is not representative and that you're both right though  . But there seems to be a definite distinction between DJ's and producers, and diggers (they're not necessarily one - or two - and the same) and I know that, although I started out buying tapes, when I could afford it this just fledged into a fully formed vinyl habit...

[Matt Hero]

Oh, there are plenty of good records out there in charity shops, but the big 'if' as Ed suggests if actually getting out there to get them.

Before I was a home worker and was stuck in an office for 8 hours a day Monday to Friday, my charity returns were pretty minimal. Right now, I can take the odd 30 mins out in the day to hit places reguarly and the returns are better.

Still, that doesn't explain what Mark is turning up every weekend now does it !

[left hand corner]

We all grew up in a period when vinyl was king. I bought originals because they where cheap and it was the only way to get the song. I got used to checking out secondhand records shops and car boots. This is where the habit took hold. I has never let go.

A kid these days isn't going to go through the same thing. To them original means CD. They've probably never seen a 7". Therefore their take on collecting will be different to ours.

I went out in Reading a few Fridays ago. I went to Po Na Na's and the DJ was playing good well-known (to me) classic funk. Everybody was loving it. I would say the majority of people there were about 20-25. The DJ was playing off CD and comps. Nobody cared that they're were'nt originals. All they wanted to do was dance. With DJs doing this the only people to collect the original source will be record geeks like us.

[vibra]

Quote[/b] (left hand corner @ Dec. 29 2003,13:27)]I went out in Reading a few Fridays ago. I went to Po Na Na's and the DJ was playing good well-known (to me) classic funk. Everybody was loving it. I would say the majority of people there were about 20-25. The DJ was playing off CD and comps. Nobody cared that they're were'nt originals. All they wanted to do was dance. With DJs doing this the only people to collect the original source will be record geeks like us.

Uh-oh, I feel a deepfunk moment coming on..

[left hand corner]

Quote[/b] ]Uh-oh, I feel a deepfunk moment coming on..

Not here because I had a great time. When you're dancing you don't care what format a record is on. I know some people would disagree with this.

When JT did his night at Po Na Na he used to play plenty of comps.

[Rich Hero]

Quote[/b] (left hand corner @ Dec. 29 2003,13:27)]We all grew up in a period when vinyl was king. I bought originals because they where cheap and it was the only way to get the song. I got used to checking out secondhand records shops and car boots. This is where the habit took hold. I has never let go.

A kid these days isn't going to go through the same thing. To them original means CD. They've probably never seen a 7". Therefore their take on collecting will be different to ours.

I went out in Reading a few Fridays ago. I went to Po Na Na's and the DJ was playing good well-known (to me) classic funk. Everybody was loving it. I would say the majority of people there were about 20-25. The DJ was playing off CD and comps. Nobody cared that they're were'nt originals. All they wanted to do was dance. With DJs doing this the only people to collect the original source will be record geeks like us.

Exactly, but the pessimist in me believes there will always be a lot of record geeks (the obsessed rather than the fans) and new anoraks will find their way in to join our ranks. And sales of new vinyl increased last year...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertain...ic/1342213.stm

(There you've got me arguing against my optimistic feeling that even with healthy competition there will always be more than enough great tunes out there... ).

[Rich Hero]

Quote[/b] (left hand corner @ Dec. 29 2003,13:39)]When JT did his night at Po Na Na he used to play plenty of comps.

Justin Timberlake DJ'd in Reading?!?

[Si Cheeba]

Quote[/b] (left hand corner @ Dec. 29 2003,13:27)]I went out in Reading a few Fridays ago. I went to Po Na Na's and the DJ was playing good well-known (to me) classic funk. Everybody was loving it. I would say the majority of people there were about 20-25. The DJ was playing off CD and comps. Nobody cared that they're were'nt originals. All they wanted to do was dance. With DJs doing this the only people to collect the original source will be record geeks like us.

Ahh, the perenial favourite.

Yes, whilst people can have a great time listening and dancing to DJs playing some great music off comps - there's always got to be people putting these comps together for any "new"sounds to emerge.

There will always be that "funky classics" niche and it's been the same for years - ever since the days of the Urban Classics JBs/Maceo 12"s - then onto the Acid Jazz collections. No bad thing. Certainly preferable to shit, cheezy "so called dance" music.

BUT even people into the "Funk classics" will get bored and are up for lots more simililar but "new" old music - which is where the likes of us come in - it's that next level. If people get into then great - it really is a lot more accessible than 10/15 years ago when you HAD to buy the originals as there were hardly any re-issues/comps etc...

Mind you, I'll still always drop the odd golden oldy like The Grunt / I Know You Got Soul / What A Man etc, etc - you can't just play to "purists" or you go up you own arse.

[sketch]

great topic.
I kinda left a bit of a paranoid response on soulstrut, and that's really what my subconcious mind is like.

Here in Chicago, turnover is baffling. I've been in shops where I'd see a whole mess of new arrivals, and come in 4 days later and find even newer new arrivals, and always finding some really good records. Honestly, if you miss a week or 2, you probably missed out on some great music you don't have.

Now of course, always finding great records at one of these spots is a good thing, but it isn't enough for the obsessive compulsive digger that want EVERY great record that passes through the store.

I think a lot of this mentallity is due to eman's #1. There will always be more records to discover, and with the information age, one's want list always grows and grows and grows, and the gaps in one's collection only seem to get larger.

You take all of this, and mix it with the thought that the present will be the best time for records, and things will slowly be more and more scarce as the years go by, and you will have yourself an extreme vinyl hoarder.

[theeman]

Quote[/b] (Si Cheeba @ Dec. 29 2003,14:03)]Mind you, I'll still always drop the odd golden oldy like The Grunt / I Know You Got Soul / What A Man etc, etc - you can't just play to "purists" or you go up you own arse.

very true. added to which, every time a new comp comes out (a decent one mind, not one of those horrific funk-by-numbers major label rip-offs) i still find a track on it that is probably well known to collectors but i've never heard, and that probably goes for many of us on the board.

there's too much music out there... that's probably a good thing but sometimes i'm not so sure!

[theeman]

Quote[/b] (sketch @ Dec. 29 2003,18:05)]I think a lot of this mentallity is due to eman's #1. There will always be more records to discover, and with the information age, one's want list always grows and grows and grows, and the gaps in one's collection only seem to get larger.

many of us are old enough to remember that the best way to get new tips was to subscribe to as many postal lists from all over the world as possible. no doubt a load of us still have a stash of these hidden away for reference.

unless you were prepared to find records by just searching and searching in the shops and chancing across them, lists were the most reliable way of finding stuff out, either through dealers or published DJ playlists in magazines, or bothering club DJs, or having knowlegeable mates.

the internet has sidelined dealer lists to some extent (and i'm glad to see that it's taken away some of the 'vinyl cartel' power that they often had in the past) but we all still check resolution and jazzman etc as they're always selling something new and different.

one of the best things about the web is being able to find foreign records. in the bad old days, anything non-US or non-UK used to cost a fortune from a dealer, just because they'd only seen one copy and really didn't have a clue how rare it was. with the web, supply and demand regulate the price to a reasonable level in most cases.

going back to an interesting old Soul Strut question: do you think that Internet record buying is a good or bad thing?

[theeman]

Quote[/b] (sketch @ Dec. 29 2003,18:05)]Here in Chicago, turnover is baffling. ÂI've been in shops where I'd see a whole mess of new arrivals, and come in 4 days later and find even newer new arrivals, and always finding some really good records. ÂHonestly, if you miss a week or 2, you probably missed out on some great music you don't have.

yes, it's a very slow day...

when i was putting together the London guide on this site, i talked to most of the shops about how much they were buying. generally they reckoned 5-10 collections a week, with a decent big collection every 2-3 months.

in the UK, most of those records are standard rock material. jazz, funk and soul is a tiny percentage of what they shift, and the rare stuff represents an even tinier percentage of that tiny percentage. the result is that, for a UK collector, the funk/soul/jazz etc racks generally tend to stay pretty stale unless you time it right - or just look through more sections.

in the UK we're better served for weird prog releases (although usually expensive as it's been a big collector market for many years), tasty folk, and the usual lounge funk and big band stuff.

it seems that most US collectors don't really understand how hard it is to find good stuff in the UK, and just how expensive it is over here compared with dollar bin goodies from the USA. a 'dollar bin' record here costs 6-8 times as much as a comparable US find, so we're probably less likely to take risks when buying. i wouldn't drop 10 quid (or usually more in London&#33 on a record without hearing it unless i was very sure it was gonna be good - would you?

presumably that's why Vinyl Vulture exists - to promote those charity shop and car boot sale finds which are amongst the few areas where you can still score decent vinyl in the UK for piece rates.

[Matt Hero]

Quote[/b] (theeman @ Dec. 30 2003,12:32)]going back to an interesting old Soul Strut question: do you think that Internet record buying is a good or bad thing?

For me, unquestionably a good thing.

The ability to be able to find, fairly quickly, a selection of copies of a record that I'm after.... compare prices, see how many there are for sale etc is totally invaluable.

It's not just for buying that I find it so. For checking which LP has a certain track on it, or which territories something was released, let alone how rare something I've dug up.... I really couldn't do what I do without the good ol' interweb.

However, I couldn't replace all my buying with e-digs. Getting out and dusty in some god forsaken field, junk shop or charity shop is something that I still love to do and without it I'd be far too dislocated from the items themselves. No matter how many copies of 'No Parlez' I find.

[Matt Hero]

Quote[/b] (theeman @ Dec. 30 2003,12:51)]it seems that most US collectors don't really understand how hard it is to find good stuff in the UK, and just how expensive it is over here compared with dollar bin goodies from the USA. a 'dollar bin' record here costs 6-8 times as much as a comparable US find, so we're probably less likely to take risks when buying. i wouldn't drop 10 quid (or usually more in London&#33 on a record without hearing it unless i was very sure it was gonna be good - would you?

I agree with that.... outside London (or for that matter Manchester) decent sources of second hand records are somewhat disperate.

For most towns and cities, there are maybe one (or if you're lucky two) shops which seem to control the local markets price wise... generally catering for the general collector or rock and pop. Turnover at those that I pop into seems to be pretty poor overall, hence why I tend to spend more time doing numerous visits to the charaties and boots, where at least stock seems to turn up regularly.

Obvious to mention, but 'Dollar Bin' records in the UK reflect the buying habits of the general public. Hence why big selling records without any real musical merit (like the aformentioned 'No Parlez&#39 turn up in large numbers...... if that particular LP suddenly collected some kind of reputation abroad, we'd all be laughing.

[theeman]

Quote[/b] (Matt Hero @ Dec. 30 2003,13:19)]Hence why big selling records without any real musical merit (like the aformentioned 'No Parlez&#39 turn up in large numbers...... if that particular LP suddenly collected some kind of reputation abroad, we'd all be laughing.

it's interesting that at least the SGA albums, while certainly no 'big money' records, are getting props and even plays from foreign collectors and DJs.

boogiejuice has shown that there's even cash in that market if you're prepared to prostitute yourself

ironically this has coincided with the south east's worst ever shortage of quality SGA's!