Ownership! (Beaver Holdout Comp Related)

[Striker]

In my weekly visit to the colonies (soulstrut) i noticed a rather unsavoury beef regarding Beaver's fine selection of records posted up for general consumption on there (and here and elsewhere), the upshot seemed to be an accusation that due to the fact some people over there had heard a few of the tracks played by Dante Carfagna on a radio show that they were somehow "his" & beaver's compilation was tantamount to the hip hop crime of "biting"......

the general gist for people not down like me is that Beaver was trying to take credit for records that someone else had put the work in finding.

Pete has nothing to prove, the fact that the Dorando track was on there told me that this wasn't supposed to be 100% unheard excavated gems (though i only knew 2 of the tracks) and i certainly didn't get the impression that he was trying to stick a flag in them and claim ownership. It was a brilliant selection of very hard to find music given freely in the spirit of musical evangelism... so why the salty reception from some of the soulstrut guys?

is it anything to do with the hip hop background that the forum is based on?

I DJ with Adam & sometimes Mahood (2 uk record guys mentioned in the soulstrut thread) every month and they find & play "unknown" stuff that drops my jaw constantly, if they sell a record to a bigger name DJ who then plays it on a radio show does this transfer ownership to the person who bought it? did they even have ownership in the first place? is it all just record bullshit?

Anyway the strut thread's a fine example of looking a gift horse in the mouth and also shows a strange disdain for uk dealers & collectors, maybe they're still pissed off at losing all that expensive northern & funk to these shores for pence in those soul packs back in the day and having to buy em back for top dollar in the 90s

What are your thoughts on ownership & signature tunes, is it just DJs who get like this or collectors as well?

everyone get's hipped to stuff by somebody, my taste is constantly influenced by friends, internet, crasy dudes with ginger combovers who know i like fuzzy guitar records.. where does the tail end?

people obviously care about this subject, what say the vultures?

[el sporto]

Ownership. What the hell is this? Music is for sharing. Snobbish twats if you ask me.

[Col Wolfe]

I think that is fucking hilarious

nobody 'owns' these records and nobody should give a toss as to who found/rediscovered them

let's talk about that 'chains/blackexhaust' thing for starters, there's 45s on that comp that we were playing out in our Norwich club 1990-94.....so fucking what? who cares?

props to the likes of Beaver et al who happily share their collection

but what do I know, I'm a 'biter' apparently

in fact, most vultures/record collectors/yoyostruttaz I know would be termed as 'biters'

I'll shed some unsavoury beef the way of Beaver for wanting to share with the baggypantyoyocrowd in the first place

bite me with your mega bytes computer hiphop numpties who said 'word' and things

[wooly]

The only person who can claim to 'own' a tune is the person who wrote the bloody thing. Ok, maybe their publisher, if we're to get pedantic about it.

Plucking something from relative obscurity does not mean you 'own' it.

This is the side of the vinyl game that I don't like.

[Striker]

Ownership. What the hell is this? Music is for sharing. Snobbish twats if you ask me.

people take it very seriously, getting a reputation as a dealer and or a dj on a weird scene can be all about playing new finds, it's a very thin line between playing exciting new sounds & a twatty stench of elitism

the northern soul cover up.....

[el sporto]

.....as the record said. [once again]

Yeah, I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge.
The kids are coming up from behind.
I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge to the kids from France and from London.
But I was there.

I was there in 1968.
I was there at the first Can show in Cologne.
I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge to the kids whose footsteps I hear when they get on the decks.
I'm losing my edge to the Internet seekers who can tell me every member of every good group from 1962 to 1978.
I'm losing my edge.

To all the kids in Tokyo and Berlin.
I'm losing my edge to the art-school Brooklynites in little jackets and borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered eighties.

But I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge, but I was there.
I was there.
But I was there.

I'm losing my edge.
I'm losing my edge.
I can hear the footsteps every night on the decks.
But I was there.
I was there in 1974 at the first Suicide practices in a loft in New York City.
I was working on the organ sounds with much patience.
I was there when Captain Beefheart started up his first band.
I told him, "Don't do it that way. You'll never make a dime."
I was there.
I was the first guy playing Daft Punk to the rock kids.
I played it at CBGB's.
Everybody thought I was crazy.
We all know.
I was there.
I was there.
I've never been wrong.

I used to work in the record store.
I had everything before anyone.
I was there in the Paradise Garage DJ booth with Larry Levan.
I was there in Jamaica during the great sound clashes.
I woke up naked on the beach in Ibiza in 1988.

But I'm losing my edge to better-looking people with better ideas and more talent.
And they're actually really, really nice.

I'm losing my edge.

I heard you have a compilation of every good song ever done by anybody. Every great song by the Beach Boys. All the underground hits. All the Modern Lovers tracks. I heard you have a vinyl of every Niagra record on German import. I heard that you have a white label of every seminal Detroit techno hit - 1985, '86, '87. I heard that you have a CD compilation of every good '60s cut and another box set from the '70s.

I hear you're buying a synthesizer and an arpeggiator and are throwing your computer out the window because you want to make something real. You want to make a Yaz record.

I hear that you and your band have sold your guitars and bought turntables.
I hear that you and your band have sold your turntables and bought guitars.

I hear everybody that you know is more relevant than everybody that I know.

But have you seen my records? This Heat, Pere Ubu, Outsiders, Nation of Ulysses, Mars, The Trojans, The Black Dice, Todd Terry, the Germs, Section 25, Althea and Donna, Sexual Harrassment, a-ha, Pere Ubu, Dorothy Ashby, PIL, the Fania All-Stars, the Bar-Kays, the Human League, the Normal, Lou Reed, Scott Walker, Monks, Niagra,

Joy Division, Lower 48, the Association, Sun Ra,
Scientists, Royal Trux, 10cc,

Eric B. and Rakim, Index, Basic Channel, Soulsonic Force ("just hit me"!), Juan Atkins, David Axelrod, Electric Prunes, Gil! Scott! Heron!, the Slits, Faust, Mantronix, Pharaoh Sanders and the Fire Engines, the Swans, the Soft Cell, the Sonics, the Sonics, the Sonics, the Sonics.

You don't know what you really want. (x15)

[el sporto]

.....mind you I lost my edge years ago. Now where is that that Perez Prado record?

[medlar]

Kids nowadays eh
Er no you don't own it, now hopalong and write a tune of your own

[wallace]

Strikesie:
DJs uz o' noo import wha'soewer.
Why yew debasin' yersell by gittin' wark'd-oop ower nuffink?

[el sporto]

.....my god I actually agree with Wallace.

[Striker]

Strikesie:
DJs uz o' noo import wha'soewer.
Why yew debasin' yersell by gittin' wark'd-oop ower nuffink?

I'm not getting worked up i just think it's an interesting (& slightly confusing) side of things, By all accounts Wallace you're quite a heavy collector do you notice attitudes like this in the collecting world, ie dealers digging up copies of a record, hyping it a bit and then being deemed to have discovered it and revelling in the glory of being THE MASTER OF RECORDS?

[Beaver]

Ownership and Discovery, what a load of bollocks, I thought it was a good CD, don't really give a fuck either way really, it was more the Homage to Dante that got me??

[Lord Thames]

So to put this in terms that a boring old square like me would understand, is this the equivalent of a load of TOGs having a go at someone on their forum for putting Katie Melua on a compilation CD because Terry Wogan played her record first?

[Beaver]

So to put this in terms that a boring old square like me would understand, is this the equivalent of a load of TOGs having a go at someone on their forum for putting Katie Melua on a compilation CD because Terry Wogan played her record first?

Oi! Don't diss the Wogan

[Beaver]

Thing is Drew sent me a link to a mix he did in a PM apologising for getting out of hand, and it featured things that were pretty common and I've had in my collection for years, The Impressions, Honey & The Bees, Byrdie Green, The Imperial Wonders, Lee Moses, not exactly unknown ownership groundbreaking records, are they?

1. Down to Earth - Forgive Me If I Cry (Intro)
2. Imperial Wonders - Trying To Get To You
3. Honey and the Bees - Together Forever
4. The Charmels - Please Uncle Sam
5. Byrdie Green - Don't Make It Hurt
6. The Voice Masters - In Love In Vain
7. Hallelujah Chorus - I've Got To Find A Way
8. Lee Moses - Don't Make Me What You Don't Want Me To Be
9. The Impressions - Emotions
10. The Festivals - So In Love
11. The Thompsons - Love In Her Eyes

I'm off to grab my baseball cap and shovel to get down to some REAL diggin', OK homies

[Striker]

Ownership and Discovery, what a load of bollocks, I thought it was a good CD, don't really give a fuck either way really, it was more the Homage to Dante that got me??

it's how some people think though isn't it.... i was just mulling it over while trying to ignore the csi repeat that my girlfriend swears she hasn't seen before so maybe i was reading too much into it.

thought it showed up some interesting record geek foibles.... just me then

ah well
it was a very good cd thanx.

[Striker]

So to put this in terms that a boring old square like me would understand, is this the equivalent of a load of TOGs having a go at someone on their forum for putting Katie Melua on a compilation CD because Terry Wogan played her record first?

what's a TOG


tedious old git?

[wallace]

I'm not getting worked up do you notice attitudes like this in the collecting world, ie dealers digging up copies of a record, hyping it a bit and then being deemed to have discovered it and revelling in the glory of being THE MASTER OF RECORDS?

Ah want nems.
Wot dealer be dis?
Ah'll huv Fergus lay oan th' big mouf a jolly guid brayin'.

Wallace be th' Maister o' Records.
Nane orther.

(Weel, mebbe Walter, oar Gholam,oar Paul, oar Ashley, oar...)

[beddoes]

Lame bullshit.

[amino]

This whole thing is i big pile of bull. Big up for Pete sharing stuff and also trading and selling stuff. His sharing has changed my musical taste big time during the last couple of years and I would really miss if Pete stop doing this. I don't give a f#ck if someone else has played it earlier or 'found' it years ago.

And everything has been discovered by someone when albums or 45s came out of the print. I think that the whole movement of getting credit for discovering a song is just bull. There's been people who has been playing records in public and collecting before our generation, or maybe just buying the record for the love of the music. Someone has always discovered it sooner or later but most definetly before our collector generation.

Music is for sharing and people who created the music years and years ago are the ones who should get the credit, not some random dj or collector who finds a dusty vinyl years later.

[wallace]

Amino:
Wallace agrees wif yew tha findin' records is nuffink whan 'eld oop agin light o' composin'/playin' th' origerrnulAn' ah loike yer line:"Someone has always discovered it sooner or later but most definetly BEFOUR OUR COLLECTOR GENERATION."


Strikesie:
Ter serioouslay -dis toime- answer yer questioon:
Ah doan loike fowk ter be shittin' oan SEBENTAY'S dealers. Thais wor th' pioneers. Dems poosh'd dis music whan noo ane else wor innerestid. Iffin were nort fer dealers loike Steven Smith (hokay -mebbe a nort sae guid exarmple since toornid oot motorcycles wor hissen real luv) wuld uz ewer 'eard o' bands loike Shide & Acorn oar Dark? (Aye summain else discower'd Dark,bur wor Steven who activlay poosh'd 'em in hissen cattyloges.)
Sebentay's dealers went sae far -arse in case o' Paul Major - ter acturally create innerest in a whole hitherto unwelcumed/tertally-ignorid genre.
Sae plaise doan be shittin' oan dem.
.
Shure, wiffoot dem ,chances are sumfink loike Dark wuld hae SUMHOO surfac'd -bur mebbe a decade later.
Alser: shure back innae 70's wor muckle "easier" ter discover den now, simplay coz o' toime factor -dems wor thee'er art th' roight toime whan fruit wor ripest fer th' pickin'.
Still, warthy unknowns are bein' faand & poosh'd ewen 20/30 yahres oan -say fings loike th' band Los Deu Larvath - bur its gittin' ter be bleedin' difficult.

Attack th' "random" DJ, noo th' kerlecter -wic is ter say, in dis sense, th' dealer.
........
Ah ken, yew probs doan care fer whey dis threid be toornin', since by yer ain admission, yew DJ orcassionallay; bur ah'rm noo gornae hald it back - dis disease o' evray Ego reckonin' 'imsell ter be yer DJ daddy fer th' evenin' reely gits Wallace's goat. Th' sheer presumptioon tha 'im be somehoo a reflectioon o' th' arctooal artist, whan in fact dems use orther's talents arse joompboard fer hir ain glorificatioon. (Arse ah'm no impressid by mere DJmanship, ah dornt exacterlay see 'ow dis self-glorificatioon formula arctooallay warks. Bur thas coz ah'rm noo alien lifeform tha' cares ter adulate such dross.)


Loike kareoke bighaids, DJs innae proper ooniverse wuld be larf'd arf hir soapboxes in shame ter presume demsells summat (loike fashion models) o' social/wotewer value.

[jakartajive]

My tuppence worth would be to essentially reinforce what everyone else has said, which is that Beaver rules and the whole Soulstrut mentality is bollocks and a slow kind of posion that seeps in and rots the soul, the complete opposite of the way we do things here, thank you very much!

There's always loads of stuff on Pete's mixes I don't know - and some I do that maye other folk don't (Federal Duck spring to mind). I have no idea where he first heard them or get to know of them and don't even know if he owns them all on original vinyl pressings - and couldn't give a flying fuck on any front, really. I am - like most of you, except Wallace, who probably doesn't listen to anything he fears might contain soul music ( ) - just very grateful to get the chance to hear stuff.

That said, we would be lying if we didn't fess up to the fact that in the world of careerist DJs, diggers, label owners, etc. the notion of something being someone's tune does still exist. There are things I dig that I first heard on, say, a David Holmes mix or a Votel one and they become partly tied in with their names in my mind, I suppose, in the same way as Nina Simone ends up having a bleeding yoghurt connotation. This is how the world of DJ-ing kind of works, I would've thought. You break 'your' tunes, covering the labels up if needs be, and jealously guard against 'impersonators'.

As Col Wolfe said, though, someone's always been there before. I used to DJ in a bar in Chinatown with a mate of mine, '92 or '93, playing what we thought of then as a fairly radical mix of Bollywood, dub, psych and punk and garage. One night, some old geezer turns up, stands and watches us for twenty minutes, then sneers "You know. I played every single one of these records out back in the 70s". Yipee for you, mate.

What I really worry about, though, is whether or not I'll ever get away with playing stuff on Rich Hero's famous CD mixes out ever again - even though I had some of them already!!

Screw Soulstrut and their tight-ass paranoia and open up the gates, man.

[Brother Logic]

My tuppence worth would be to essentially reinforce what everyone else has said, which is that Beaver rules and the whole Soulstrut mentality is bollocks and a slow kind of posion that seeps in and rots the soul, the complete opposite of the way we do things here, thank you very much!

To be fair to them though it was only one or two people who were moaning. I find this kind of thing quite funny, especially as Dante says that he disagrees with them. Reminds of the funk45 post where Keb said he'd gladly use iPods to DJ.....

[Ian Townsend]

Agree with all the VV-ers...the majority here like to share simply to find sounds that are new and exciting to our ears irrespective of genre or the year they were originally made and irrespective of who played them first.

The irritable, nit-picking post that questioned the integrity of Beavers generous sharing of great tunes was fuelled by petty jealousy of the genuine 'Thanks Very Much' responses Beaver got by posting the comp.

The petty jealousy was of course fuelled by the respondents youth (under 30 I'd wager?) and gender (male - definitely).

These two factors lead to an overwhelming desire in him to let the world know that he not only knew a lot of the songs already but also could pinpoint when and where another DJ had played some of them.

It's the peacock alpha male in it's prime. An arrogance that afflicts many young men the world over; whatever their chosen passion.

And sadly for males we're all either there; or have been there to a greater or lesser degree, at some point in our lives.

Apologies for being an infuriatingly annoying and patronising older male.

[jakartajive]

Agree with all the VV-ers...the majority here like to share simply to find sounds that are new and exciting to our ears irrespective of genre or the year they were originally made and irrespective of who played them first.

The irritable, nit-picking post that questioned the integrity of Beavers generous sharing of great tunes was fuelled by petty jealousy of the genuine 'Thanks Very Much' responses Beaver got by posting the comp.

The petty jealousy was of course fuelled by the respondents youth (under 30 I'd wager?) and gender (male - definitely).

These two factors lead to an overwhelming desire in him to let the world know that he not only knew a lot of the songs already but also could pinpoint when and where another DJ had played some of them.

It's the peacock alpha male in it's prime. An arrogance that afflicts many young men the world over; whatever their chosen passion.

And sadly for males we're all either there; or have been there to a greater or lesser degree, at some point in our lives.

Apologies for being an infuriatingly annoying and patronising older male.

You're not starting, are you, Townsend?
I warned you about all of this last time!

[Sie Vulture]

There are people who have been playing records in public and collecting before our generation, or maybe just buying the record for the love of the music...

Thanks Amino (and Jakartajive) for posting my thoughts up 100% accurately, therefore saving me wasting anymore time on this bullshit... ... the only good thing was that it was kinda limited to a couple of people and did simmer down quickly. I'd hate to think of us all, in Beaver's defence, having to tool up and jump on a plane, go sort this out East End style... ...

Beaver mate - don't waste anymore time posting mixes over there, if all you get is flack...

[Payback3000]

I think people with this kind of attitude need to get right out of the school yard!

There are a couple of DJ's in Hull who seem to hate my guts because I don't pay £50 -£100 for a rare funk 45's and dare to play records recorded after Jan 1968 / dare to only use stuff burnt C.D's to make life easier.

These chaps once covered up there 45 labels when I was stuck dj'ing after them once...they covered up 'FUNKY PRESIDENT' for f*cks sake!

I only bothers me because when I see them out they look daggers at me like sulky kids...I can do without the bad vibes.

On the plus side also refuse to play anything I play as it would make them look 'wack'...fine by me chaps!

[Ian Townsend]

And who is this Farte D'Artagnon fella? He sounds cool.

[Hadrian Elephant]

I don't see what the fuss is about.

I've read the thread and all but one Soulstrut poster is telling Beaver (quite rightly) that the mix is great.

Let's not make this thread a Soulstrut bash, most blokes over there are allright from what I've read/the few I've met.

They like interesting and obscure music, so do we, so do Waxidermy, so do Deepfunk etc etc

We are all like minded individuals with a lot in common as far as I can see.

I hope you won't let some snidey comments stop you posting your mixes Beaver. They are a highlight of this board for me and introduce me to loads of great tunes I'd never heard of before.

[Beaver]

I'm not bothered about the Snidey comments, it was more the constant arse licking of Dante that gets to me, homage to Dante, do me a favour, I just try to share tunes that inspire me and that I think others enjoy, if people think they are cack that's their opinion and I have no problem with that, but all the ownership and unknown tune bollocks is the biggest pile of horse shit I've ever heard in my life, I got that Expressway EP which I have never seen and introduced a few people to Blue Evening which will appear on the VV Flute comp, but to say I discovered it is rubbish, I got it from an eBay seller, who got it from someone else, who got it from someone else, etc etc etc....

As I stated in my Hold Out CD post on this board, it's all about sharing the music in my opinion, I think I can hold my own and know a bit, but I'm not a secret fu*king squirrel who thinks he's above the law, which certain 'HEADS' on the Soulstrut forum obviously do? Thing is the original guy who slated me has gone very quiet since I asked him to post his amazing mix of UNKNOWNS, one beautiful English word sums it up perfectly, WANKERS!!