Sermad? wayne? ladyboy?

[Benicio Del Toffo]

There seems to be a lot of prog in the air, but I'm kinda struggling with what constitutes 'Prog', moreover, where does 'prog' end and 'psych' begin (and vice versa)?

I'm buggered if I can make a distinction half the time, does it just come down to lyrical content? Or pissing around with effects? Noodly navel-gazing?

Enlighten me. I'm interested, maaaan.


Benicio Del EmersonLake&Palmer

PS I've tickets to see Gallo at Royal Festival Hall, anyone coming with me? Nick Cope's got to be straining at the leash surely?! Anyone else?

[Blighty]

If it came out in the sixties it's 'Psych'. It's experimental, it's daring, it's great. If it came out in the seventies it's 'prog'. It's self indulgent, boring wank. I think that's the way it works.

I dunno, I think psych is more druggy, acid induced, more guitars, rawer sound. Prog is cleaner, more synthy, more noodly and generally more boring. I don't know what I'm talking about really. I need some drugs.

[sermad]

From what I understand - psych was born from the fruits of 60's rock n roll. It was louder, harder faster and heavily influenced by the drug scenes.

Prog certainly falls into the high concept albums, 20 minute songs, wibbly bits, no drugs (or less) camp.

The dates are little less specific as its kind of accepted that the Beatles 'Sgt Peppers Lonely Heats Club Band' is the first prog rock album. Thats from '67.

Actually if you want to hear the difference between psych and prog then check the Beatles lp before Sgt Pepper...That would be the incredible 'Revolver'.

[Blighty]

'Sgt Pepper' is prog and 'Revolver' is psych?! Surely you jest.

[sermad]

I'm wrong! Revolver is progressive as hell!

PROG!

[Blighty]

'Revolver' sounds more like a pop album to me. 'Tomorrow Never Knows' is very psychedelic but the rest is pop/rock with funky/soulful/Motown/psychdelic/showtune influences. It's a million miles away from ELP/Yes and all those bands and what I would define as prog. Same deal with 'Sgt Pepper' really. 'Within You Without You' is very psychedelic. As is 'Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds'. Most of the rest is pop/rock with various other things thrown in.

Damn! Now I have major Beatles urges. *rummages*

[LDJB]

I had this very same problem with definition when I wrote the articles for the main site on funky prog - looking back I reckon most of it was psych but what the hell - I was thinking of doing part 3, what do you reckon?

[ladyboygrimsby]

I think you have to think back to how some of this music was described at the time, which was well before prog became a short-hand term for "self-indulgent crap". The Beatles did play progressive rock, as in rock music that was progressive. Most of the albums named in the list Sermad posted fall well within this remit. However, where psych and prog cross is another thing and, honestly, does it really matter?

[Blighty]

It doesn't matter. It's just a good excuse to discuss old records and stuff. But I think the original definition is long dead. Much like 'pop' meaning 'popular' and 'indie' meaning 'independant'. The Beatles were progressive and they made rock music but I'd never label them as 'prog'.

Quote[/b] ]I had this very same problem with definition when I wrote the articles for the main site on funky prog - looking back I reckon most of it was psych but what the hell - I was thinking of doing part 3, what do you reckon?

I vote yes.

[Nick Cope]

Psych = trippy
Prog = long
Psych Prog = trippy long
Prog Psych = long trippy


Gallo's in town? That son-of-a-bitch, lemme at him!

[wayne]

I can't say I know what the difference was at the time: I suspect psychedelia was 'progressive rock' until the more classical pretensions of ELP/Yes/Genesis sort of split off from the fairly primal riff-tastic 'Nuggets' river into a side-channel where 'concept' and 'musicianship' (ie: 20 minute guitar/drum/organ solos) became more important than instinct: and the move to big stadium shows was probably part of that switch. A fondness for referencing elves, hobbits and wizards, and dressing up like Leigh Bowery on acid is also a fair sign of 'prog' being in the building.

But the lines are pretty blurred: Roxy Music have huge dollops of prog in their sound, as do Led Zeppelin (usually seen as just 'rock', even with 'Stairway To Heaven on their consciences), Marvin Gaye circa 'What's Goin' On', Stevie Wonder doing 'Innervisions' and 'Secret Life Of Plants', The Beatles (as mentioned), Parliament/Funkadelic on tracks like 'Maggot Brain', Velvet Underground doing 20 minute tracks like 'Sister Ray', the whole folk/psych thing of Incredible String Band, or the Eastern raga/rock thing...even avant-garde and classical stuff like Morton Subotnik or Terry Riley...right up to bands like Olivia Tremor Control, Boards Of Canada and Acid Mothers Temple now. All prog, and a lot of it psych as well. Go figure. And as ladyboygrimsby wisely says, 'who cares?'.

'Prog' as a derogatory term, I suspect, is simply the result of punk/new wave (Lydon in his 'I Hate Pink Floyd' t-shirt - but punks also digging Hawkwind, folk and Gong - well, in Wales in 1978 they did, I can tell you) but I guess that just means we've inherited 'prog' as a general term for describing records of a certain kind that you don't happen to like, mostly from the 1968 - 1978 period, while excluding all those you do like from the definition. Sort of like 'muzak' in relation to lounge/easy stuff up to the mid-90s...

So, to sum up. 'Prog' in its derogatory sense (referring to the lumpen likes of Genesis, ELP etc) means 'crap-combined-with-pretentious', while 'prog' in its more respectable guise can mean anything from Sgt Pepper and Silver Apples to The Chambers Brothers and Sly Stone - or Future Sound Of London. Just a big catch all for a ton of otherwise unclassifiable music: psychedelia is another, slightly earlier, and both cover much of the same turf. Though the difference can mean a big mark up, depending on whether the shop has it in the psych/garage or general rock bins...

There you go. I'm glad that's all cleared up...  

[wayne]

One more thing: I distinctly remember reading somewhere that the term 'progressive rock' was originally coined to distinguish what bands like The Nice, Vanilla Fudge and Iron Butterfly were doing from the rest of the scene, in 1968/9 - which if it's true is interesting, because not much American music gets classfied as prog, come to think of it. Seems to be a term applied mostly to UK and European bands...

[Si Cheeba]

Just to throw another one into the mix...

Psyche Vs Freakbeat

Any difference?

I'd say it was hard to pin down. And as ever, with pigeonholing music - there is always going to be stuff that falls into a number of categories at the same time.

That's the stuff I like best!

[sermad]

Freakbeat...Er its from the UK. And its the bridge between 60's beat and psych. Pretty raw, hard, fast, loud. Like garage rock from the states I guess.

Its all bollocks tho innit. Rock n roll when it comes down to it!

[Rich Hero]

Quote[/b] (wayne @ Feb. 19 2004,00:09)]A fondness... ...dressing up like Leigh Bowery on acid is also a fair sign of 'prog' being in the building.:

Wouldn't that just be 'dressing up like Leigh Bowery'? Or maybe 'Leigh Bowery on a quiet night in'.

Once saw a doc about why we like music (the great unwashed - not just VV) and the evolution of musical eras and, if I remember correctly, it went something like this...


1. Musicians barely know how to use their instruments and the music produced is constrained by these limitations.

2. They now know how to play competently and experiment, pushing the boundaries drawn by these limitations.

3. They're now virtuoso's, everything has already been done and musical expression is more about displaying this virtuosity than anything else.

4. Everything's still been done and so we descend into pastiche and pop has eaten itself...


So I guess psyche and prog would be 2. and 3. respectively?

As for psyche and freakbeat, it seems that psyche encompasses more than just groovy sounds for the dancefloor?